LA PULCELLA DORLÉANS (Italian Edition)

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Line 12 I think you want "super pangenses" with the accusative for "over the pagans" rather than the ablative, which would mean "above" in a physical sense. Finally in line 13, why the passive imperfect? The original suggests an active present indicative, which is possible also in Latin "exhortat" for "encourages. Also, in this line, to translate "dont lei nonque cheielt," remember that this is an idiom, and "lei" is definitely feminine, that is "it doesn't matter to her.

About the idiom in Latin, "cui non libet" or "cui non lubet" suggests "it doesn't matter to someone.

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By the way, I think the Romance "dont" here means "about it" rather than "of his" as you have in your footnote; and de unde is probably the right etymology for "dont. In your English, you might change 'that she deny he who lives above in heaven' to 'deny him who lives in heaven'. Also, "not forever love" should be "not love forever" to avoid splitting the infinitive.

JaimeB , May 16, Vobis gratias ago pro tuos adiumenta.


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Imprecator , May 16, Someone get this man his medication! I may be wrong about that, and I don't have my old dictionaries around any more to check. Of course that might only have been in Francien, and this is Wallon or Picard.


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I suppose I could be letting myself be influenced by modern Italian, where the gender difference I'm suggesting between "lui" and "lei" still holds. All in all, though, I'm fairly certain about the Francien. Imprecator , May 17, Bitmap , May 17, Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan. While I definitely find it interesting, I can't say I really understand the purpose of the project.

If you're attempting to reconstruct proto-Gallo-Romance vernacular Latin as close as possible, why even bother with case endings at all, for example? It's pretty well established, I think, that the declension system had completely broken down by this time. At any rate nominative-accusative distinction would have been entirely effaced.

The reason why so many Late Latin of the more popular variety and Medieval Latin texts have weird case usage with prepositions is not because of some natural shift of one case to another away from the classical norm, but because the different case endings had ceased to exist in the spoken language altogether, leaving writers in the unfortunate position of having to memorize which unpronounced case endings to use after which prepositions, as these distinctions were no longer made concrete by use in everyday speech.

Of course they would make mistakes, and of course others would then copy the mistakes unwittingly. This doesn't really mean anything in terms of the diachronic development of the actual, spoken language, though. I guess what I'm asking is What good will it do to try to shoe-horn ossified synthetic Latin grammar onto the frame of a, by this time, already well-developed and far more analytical vernacular?

It seems that in doing so you do violence both to Latin itself, by making a highly-artificial "translation" that won't mean much of anything in either language, and to the true historical-linguistic development of proto-Gallo-Romance, by obscuring it with the strictures of a long-since-dead, highly formalized idiom. That's my feeling, anyway.

Don't get me wrong: I do think looking at the individual words and trying to determine their Latin origins is a worthwhile endeavor, as well as comparing the general syntax of the document to classical Latin and perhaps tracing its development from the one to the other. I'm just not convinced of the particular wisdom of the way you're going about it. Imber Ranae , May 18, Concerning the document itself, I do find some things about it rather intriguing. Of course, I don't really know much of anything about Gallo-Romance, so I could be way off base here.

It clearly is not a viable classical Latin diminutive formation, but I think I can see how it developed.


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  8. The only diminutive of this word I'm aware of is puellula , an entirely regular diminutive form. For puer , however, there are a few extant variant diminutive forms.

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    First there's the straightforward puerulus. Puella itself followed the same pattern, having originally contracted from a presumed diminutive of the older puera ; but over time it lost its diminutive force and simply replaced the original. The last form, which I think may be relevant to the discussion, is the relatively marginal puerculus. This form probably developed on analogy with these other words, since the stem of puer does not technically end in a consonant but rather simply dropped it in the nominative singular.

    Now, I'm thinking that perhaps by an even further extended analogy, the ending -cula might have been added in late or vulgar Latin to puella by erroneously disregarding the stem vowel, making puelcula geminate l forced out.

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    It would then be an easy step to puelcilla , as reduplicated diminutives are common enough even in classical Latin e. Since it is difficult to pronounce, -ululus is regularly syncopated in Latin to -illus , with weakening of the first u to i. That seems like a strange evolution, as it's clearly no longer pluperfect in meaning. The latter seems to be the source of soure instead. Imber Ranae: Your speculations about diminutives are interesting. Italian kept fratello and sorella from diminutive forms in early Romance, but later French abandoned them, if they were ever widespread.

    The document we have here has numerous dialect peculiarities from the extreme north of the Gallo-Romance region.

    LA PULCELLA DORLÉANS (Italian Edition)

    Where the epenthetic "d" comes from is a bit of a quandary; perhaps it evolved to distinguish this from forms of volvere , "to roll," if these existed at the time and might have been confused with forms evolving from volo. In Romance, futures underwent a major change from Latin, forging new forms based on the infinitive plus the truncated forms of habeo. Anayway, in context voldrent definitely preterite in meaning here. JaimeB , May 24, You must log in or sign up to reply here.

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